#2. The Nonprofit Sector Under Threat: How Martha Schumacher is Fighting for Civil Society, Free Speech, and the Future of Giving

In this urgent and inspiring episode, nonprofit leader and fundraising powerhouse Martha Schumacher joins AmickyCarol to sound the alarm about the rapid dismantling of America’s nonprofit infrastructure—just 90 days into a new administration. From wolf restoration in Yellowstone to securing $21 million for affordable housing in DC, Martha shares her lifelong commitment to equity, justice, and building resilient communities.

But today, she warns of unprecedented threats to civil society: the shuttering of USAID, the mass loss of nonprofit jobs, and the potential revocation of tax-exempt status for institutions like Harvard and environmental charities.

🔹 Grew up in Ann Arbor with a family rooted in civil rights and social justice
🔹 Early fundraising roles with Greenpeace and Defenders of Wildlife
🔹 Helped restore wolves to Yellowstone National Park as a conservation milestone
🔹 Recently led a $21M campaign to double affordable housing units in the DC region
🔹 Raises the alarm over 10,000 nonprofit job losses and defunding of key agencies like USAID
🔹 Highlights the erosion of democracy and free speech through targeted attacks on nonprofits
🔹 Reflects on the dangers of international aid dependency and calls for sustainable development
🔹 Emphasizes the urgent need for unrestricted, trust-based giving—like that led by MacKenzie Scott

“Injustice anywhere represents the potential for injustice everywhere.”

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to World Changers Podcast
• 0:52 Meet Martha Schumacher
• 8:02 From Journalism to Nonprofit Leadership
• 14:14 Making a Real Difference
• 18:01 Exploring Washington DC and Ann Arbor
• 24:00 Impact of cuts to USAID & other Agencies
• 30:20 The USAID Controversy and Aid Dependency
• 37:07 Tax-Exempt Status Under Threat

Transcript

AmickyCarol: 0:02

Hey World Changers, welcome to your podcast. I'm Amicky Carol and I travel the world with a sense of adventure and purpose, exploring, learning, having fun and meeting remarkable individuals who are transforming their communities and beyond. Join me as we dive into the inspiring journeys of changemakers from every corner of the globe, tuning in weekly for stories that might just change your life, ignite your passion and show you how ordinary people can create extraordinary impact. Subscribe now on your favorite podcast platform and follow us on social media at World Changes PC and get ready to take off. Hello everyone and welcome Martha. It's such a delight to see you again.

AmickyCarol: 0:53

My guest this week is Martha Schumacher. Martha is just a warrior in so many ways. I mean, she is also a colleague in the fundraising and business development consultancy profession. I have a lot of respect for her. But, most importantly, what I love is that you're really one who stands up for equity and justice. The same passions that burn in my heart burn in yours, and I just love that. So today I want to start by first of all exploring who you are, what you do and what's brought you to this moment very quickly, and then we can talk about how you're a world changer and then dive into the US, which is where you're from. But just for anyone who's listening, regardless of when you get to it, we're recording this on Thursday, the 17th of April 2025. So everything that's been said is in context of where we find ourselves today. So, welcome, martha, tell us about you.

Martha Schumacher: 1:51

Amaki Carroll, it is so nice to see you and just to give folks some context too, it was actually kind of amazing, because I'm always tracking Amaki Carroll, because I always feel like she's doing things I want to know about and I'm always happy to be a part of that. But I will say that it had been a while since we'd seen each other face to face, and then we were both in Amsterdam, we were both back at IFC, at the International Fundraising Congress last October, and it was just wonderful to run into. I think I ran into you first like at the cafeteria cafeteria, you know, like for lunch or breakfast or something and then she did an incredible session and I got the privilege of being a part of attending that session. So, coming back to you, I just shifted gears there to the listeners, didn't I? I said, okay, folks, here's what she did, and now I'm going to talk back to you directly. But anyway, thank you so much for inviting me. I feel really honored to be a part of this and I think, in terms of kind of giving you a little history perhaps of me or my origin story, so to speak, I don't want to belabor it too much, but I think I'm happy to spend a few minutes on where I came from and how I got here, and the short answer is that I was born and raised in Ann Arbor, michigan.

Martha Schumacher: 3:11

Ann Arbor is the home of the University of Michigan, which has been in the news a lot lately, for better, for worse, and one of the reasons for that. The good news is they are currently in a lawsuit, which is a positive thing, which I don't necessarily need to get into, but we could. But the bad news is recently they basically took down, dismantled their DEI program, so they, in my estimation, kind of caved and obviously that's really disappointing. But anyway, all of this is to say on a happier news side to this, growing up in Ann Arbor was actually kind of amazing, because it is a really progressive community For someone who has lived in DC for 38 years. It's funny because there are some people who call Ann Arbor kind of like the mini Washington.

Martha Schumacher: 4:02

I got exposure to a lot of pretty cool things, and then what I would say is, on top of that, I grew up with parents who my father, believe it or not, was actually the host of a show on NPR that is called Jazz Revisited. So I grew up with the sounds of Ella and Louie and Duke and Billy in our home, and that was incredible. And then my mother actually was in middle school. They called it social studies and language arts, but of course what that really just means is history in English, and so she was a middle school teacher for decades. But what she did in her kind of volunteer spare time when I was a little kid was work on the Equal Rights Amendment, which, of course, was not successful. That had a big impact on me, because I remember all the work she put in and, frankly, I remember the night she came home crying to tell my sister's brother and I that the area had not passed. It's interesting, because I think all of these things are to say that, in terms of human rights and civil rights, there was a lot of that in my home.

Martha Schumacher: 5:10

But I would also add I appreciate very much your comments about my commitment to equity and justice. Because I would also add, though, that, as someone who has not had the lived experience of people of the global majority, I think that it took me many more years than just my zero to 18 in Ann Arbor to get it that, while I can always be an ally and activist and advocate. That's not a lived experience I have and so I tread very lightly and carefully on that and try to be really careful. Around things like, frankly, virtue signaling, I do do what I can to help, but it doesn't mean that I personally will ever know the complexities of and the experience of being a person of the global majority. So, anyway, I grew up in Ann Arbor and then I went to Indiana University and thought I was going to go into journalism and ended up not taking that path and who knows, maybe that's good news, maybe it's bad news. Right now we need ethical and principled and strong journalists. So I still have tremendous respect for that profession and especially for those who are bringing truth to power, who are journalists.

Martha Schumacher: 6:19

But I did end up then out of that thinking that I was going to become an attorney because I ended up majoring in law and public policy and so when I left IU I moved to DC and I was a paralegal working at a large law firm and it took me maybe a year to realize that maybe I didn't want to become an attorney after all.

Martha Schumacher: 6:40

That's when I found really the nonprofit space. I had known about nonprofits and NGOs and INGOs since I was quite young. However, it wasn't really until I got to this law firm and realized this was not what I wanted to do that I started looking around DC and started seeing some of the amazing work happening at nonprofits there. So when I left that law firm after three years there. So when I left that law firm after three years, I went into working with environmental organizations, and so I was with a small group called Institute for Conservation Leadership, and then I moved on to Greenpeace, and then the vast majority of my in-house career, actually after Greenpeace, was at Defenders of Wildlife, and then I became a consultant.

AmickyCarol: 7:23

All very fascinating stuff Interesting, okay, to get that background in many ways and I don't even know, but I've heard this terminology bandied around quite a bit. You were an eco warrior before. It was cool to be one.

Martha Schumacher: 7:39

That's an interesting idea. I would love to say that I've certainly was not the person, for example, at Greenpeace, who goes and takes on the whalers. I've never been that program person on the ground. But the good news is, yeah, from a fundraising standpoint, I was in-house at all of those places doing that work and doing my best to raise as much money as possible to support those missions.

AmickyCarol: 8:03

And if there's one thing we're both passionate about is fundraising, because for me, I really think we're the ones who make all the great stuff happen. I love that. Okay, so now that we have a little bit of a background, I'd really like to explore if you have one moment when you felt like you were truly making a significant difference in the world around you.

Martha Schumacher: 8:24

As no doubt anyone listening will know, these questions came to me in advance and it's been really interesting, right. I really encourage people who are listening to this to ask themselves that same question, because it's kind of a fun exercise and it's also a really important exercise, especially during these times when the level of exhaustion and burnout and worries and staying up nights is at an all-time high, and so it's so important to bring it back to. Why are we doing this? Why are we here? What does this all mean to us and are we really making a difference? I think some of the kind of speaking of changemakers, some of the people like the Voulet and Bernard Ross and, oh my gosh, if we want to go really big, think of people like Brene Brown and I just we've got a lot of folks out there, right, who are those big thinkers and, at the end of the day, a lot of the issues that get brought up, especially by people like Voulet, are are we making a difference? Are we doing what we should be doing to really advance these missions? And it's a really important question and I think I thought of.

Martha Schumacher: 9:35

If you'll give me a little grace here, I'm going to give you two examples, and this is probably because I'm a Gemini Amaki Carroll, I don't know that I can. I don't know that I can make one. I don't know that I can, I don't know that I can make one, I don't know. I can just give you one example. So I'm going to try to do two here, and one is when I was in house, and again that was I was in house for roughly 15 years and so when I was in house, I think the moment that probably meant the most to me which is a really hard thing to pin down right, but I think it was when I began at Defenders of Wildlife and I was there nine years. It just happened to be right when the wolves were being restored, reintroduced to Yellowstone, the Yellowstone National Park. It was a huge moment for conservation and it really wasn't just about the wolves, right. It was really about what does this mean to the larger ecosystem and to restoring these keystone they're called predators to this system, and it had been, of course, a long, long battle to make this happen. And I just very fortuitously happened to join Defenders about six months before the first round of wolves were restored. They were restored over kind of a one-year time period and what was maybe the most incredible kind of on-the-ground moment about that is it's one thing to be in Washington when that's happening, but the reality was we were taking donors on trips to Yellowstone, had been doing that long before the wolves were restored, but then once we, for those nine years I got to go every year and we got to see the wolves and we got to see what was happening and, frankly, people were coming from all over the world right to see these wolves and so the impact it had, the difference it had for conservation and, of course, the impact those wolves had on the rest of the wildlife and even the ecosystem itself there in Yellowstone. So that was pretty exciting.

Martha Schumacher: 11:36

What I would say, since I've been a consultant which I've been doing for over 21 years and I just kind of can't believe that, but is most recently and I work with a lot of different groups there are many groups that you know kind of of all different types that I might be working with at any given time In this particular moment, recently and they're actually still a client, but the reason I say recently is that it's an affordable housing regional group in the DC area. Generally I work and I think you're like this too. I generally work more with you know national or global groups, but they reached out. I happen to know the VT development really well and so it was hard to not say yes. It was hard to not say yes, and so a few years ago, they reached out about a campaign, and so on December 31st 2024, just about four months ago we concluded that campaign. It was a $20 million campaign and we reached over $21 million.

Martha Schumacher: 12:39

But here's the difference the money. Of course it's important. You've got to do that to get there, but here's why it feels like such a difference was made, which is the goal of that campaign was and is to double the amount of affordable housing units in the DC region by the end of the decade. Decade. So that if you think about how expensive DC is to begin with and how hard it is to live there, regardless, the idea of being able to actually double the opportunity for folks who need affordable housing to have a place to live, that feels like a big difference to be made, and I am so proud to have, you know, had the good fortune to be able to partner with them and that yeah, I love that, honestly.

AmickyCarol: 13:30

I mean, there are a number of things I wanted to. Actually, I had to hold myself back from jumping in to see Please, jump in anytime. Yeah, I know about what you're saying is so good and it's so relatable, maybe because I'm also a fundraiser and a business development consultant and trainer. A lot of things you've had to come, yes, and I just love the fact that we can actually go in and make a difference to a campaign, literally change the prospects. We can support people to go out and change the world, even though we're doing it behind the scenes, because, at the end of the day, good causes need good fundraising. It's just a fundamental principle, isn't it? That's right, that's right. Yep, yep, yep, love that. So you're the first, I think, fundraiser WorldChanger brought on board, which is, oh, my goodness. I know I know Others are more on the project delivery side, which is great. You even have experience of that a little bit, I'm sure.

AmickyCarol: 14:33

But the next thing I also wanted to say is this issue of providence. I don't believe in fences. You keep talking about the fact that, okay, you started this, it didn't work out. Honestly, I don't know if you were a journalist or if you were a lawyer, whether we would have and I certainly say everywhere I see you believe a trade aid or speak. And even when you stood up for me once when I was trading, I see was there is a microaggressive comments my way major microaggressions.

Martha Schumacher: 15:01

It was.

AmickyCarol: 15:02

It was, and you were the one who pulled it out and who was like come on, stop, we can keep it objective. So that's great. What you do is fantastic. So, yeah, I don't believe in coincidences at all. I thank you for where you are, where you're supposed to be. Thank you, yeah, some people I don't know if you're a person of faith, but people of faith will call them God incidences so he is guiding your steps where you need to be, just at the right time to do just what you're supposed to do.

Martha Schumacher: 15:32

Well, I will say to you that I'm someone who was raised Catholic, but I left the Catholic church in my teens. But I am someone who is spiritual, so I do believe in spirituality. And it's funny you say this because you're a youngin. I never asked you your age, but I got to believe you're younger than me. If you're not, wow, but anyway. So I just was going to say that I'm at this place in my life now, and so in May I'll be 62. And the reason I bring that up in this.

AmickyCarol: 16:05

Thank you, and the reason I know when, in May, I couldn't resist. Sorry, may 26, may 26. Because I'm a. Maybe as well, but I didn't. Eight. Eight, so we can play it.

Martha Schumacher: 16:21

So does that mean, you're Taurus? Is that right?

AmickyCarol: 16:25

Yes, yes.

Martha Schumacher: 16:25

I'll go, even that yeah are you a classic Taurus, because I'm a classic Gemini, for sure, the reality is I don't know much about these things.

AmickyCarol: 16:34

I think I'm me, I broke the mold, I'm pumping me into any of those yeah generalizations, so yeah, and by the way, I am not an astrologist, nor do I know much about it.

Martha Schumacher: 16:47

I just know that some people really subscribe to it and I will say yeah, anyway. Well, all of this is to say I appreciate that kind comment, and what's funny is where I was going with the age part is I'm at a place in my life where a lot of my peers are either retiring or starting to talk about retirement and I'm just not there. So I think maybe you might be right, because I still really love what I do and so I'm not counting the days and counting the months or whatever till retirement. I'm still really enjoying it, so I love that.

AmickyCarol: 17:19

I really love that. Honestly, I don't have a retirement plan.

Martha Schumacher: 17:23

I like it. I like it, you and I.

AmickyCarol: 17:25

I think they're in lockstep on that, yeah absolutely Because I do what I enjoy, I explore what I fancy and honestly, I recognize that in some ways, in many ways, that's quite a huge amount of privilege to be able to do that, even when you were talking about sitting on clients. I only work with people and causes now that I want to, and I think that so hopefully, long may that continue. I intend to keep a foe in with the things that I want to do until I drop. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Yeah, okay, all right, fantastic.

AmickyCarol: 18:01

So now I'd love to really come back to your home country because, oh, my goodness, so much happened in the States. You know so much. There is so much happening in the States, yeah, yeah, in the springs. You know so much, and there is so much happening in the states, yeah, yeah. Before we change the tone of this happy conversation, let's let's talk about dc and ann harbour. So lots and lots of people love going to the us to visit. So for somebody who's thinking about visiting why is it important to make sure they don't miss out on visiting DC, washington DC, for instance, like, why should that be on your bucket list and then sell us some Ann Harbor if you can?

Martha Schumacher: 18:41

Here's what I would say about DC is that we will get to. Frankly, what's happening in DC, it's wow, but for the moment I will just say that DC is so vibrant, it just there's always. There's a lot of energy there. I don't know, there's good energy and bad energy, probably everywhere, but I mean, it is our nation's capital. There is a lot of variety of everything, from the arts to great food to really amazing people, great food to really amazing people.

Martha Schumacher: 19:12

I think what I love and, by the way, speaking of food, I just got to do a shout out there is, as we've been talking about equity and justice, today there's this fabulous restaurant called Immigrant Food. That's only a few blocks from the White House, which kind of makes me smile a little right now, but anyway, and they are founded by immigrants, employee only immigrants and have a whole line of oh and shoot. I was going to have it within arm's reach, but it's not right now. I've got a cap from there that says immigrants make America great, but anyway, yeah, it's a nice right, but the reason I'm bringing that anyway, aren't you?

Martha Schumacher: 19:52

America isn't immigrants immigrants, let's be fair it is all immigrants, so it's what's bearing that, keeping that in mind yeah, exactly, exactly so, anyway, but all of this is really just to say that I think, at the end of the day, what I would say to, especially to people listening to this, would be it's it's really where a lot of the key core NGO and INGO leaders and that you know, and the organizations themselves, right, are headquartered. So there is an incredible brain trust there. It is, I think, per capita, the most kind of overeducated city in the country and that's cool. But I think, more importantly, it's just it is such a nonprofit mecca, it's such a hub for nonprofit thinking and innovation, and so that makes it very exciting.

AmickyCarol: 20:47

Yeah, I know your museums are amazing and, of course, if you can book to go into the White House, it's worth going to visit, right?

Martha Schumacher: 20:56

It is worth going to visit and, yes, you do have to book in advance. But to your point about the museums, I mean certainly the mall, just the mall itself, and all of the many Smithsonian museums that you could spend days wandering through those. So, yeah, it's fantastic.

AmickyCarol: 21:12

Okay cool, so that should be on everyone's bucket list. If you go to the US Now, tell us about Ann Harbor.

Martha Schumacher: 21:25

What's most incredible to me about it is that it's only about 150,000 people, which I say only just because, compared to DC, what's called the DMV Detroit, maryland, virginia, in that area there are about 6 million people. Now in Detroit, which Ann Arbor is about 45 minutes from, there are roughly 4 to 5 million people, which I think a lot of people don't realize. So if you drive a little bit east of Ann Arbor you do start to get to a metro area that's almost as big as the DC metro area, but Ann Arbor itself is smaller. But what's incredible about it is because of the university there's a lot of kind of punching above its weight, meaning you'll go to a particular, let's say, a show, and many of them are kind of Broadway level, because you've got this incredible university program that's got theater and music etc. It's kind of amazing how on any given night of the week you can go out to Ann Arbor and you can see five different great shows.

Martha Schumacher: 22:21

So it actually has all that culture, without being as I don't want to say, because I don't want to say anything negative whatsoever about DC, but I just mean you pull up your park. It's a little easier right to manage Ann Arbor sometimes than kind of coming and going in DC. But yeah, and I think the other thing too is Ann Arbor's just always been a really progressive town that has been very focused on human rights. Now, that said, growing up there, I can tell you that growing up in Ann Arbor was at that point largely white and not terribly diverse. That has changed considerably, but it's still nowhere near as culturally and racially diverse, for example, as DC is.

AmickyCarol: 23:06

All right, cool, so you definitely recommend it when one is doing a road trip and going through Michigan.

Martha Schumacher: 23:12

I do, I do. Yeah, there's a lot. It has a lot to offer, for sure.

AmickyCarol: 23:17

Okay, all right, fantastic. And before we let you go, I really want to get into a little bit about what's happening in America, because we're just here observing, watching, wondering, but sometimes amused, other times really astounded. Yeah, if you could kind of link it into what you're working on, because, yeah, so just how does it affect you and what are your thoughts on it? We're talking about mid-April 2025.

Martha Schumacher: 23:46

So next week will be 90 days since inauguration, which is hard to believe because the level at which things have been happening feels like a lot longer than that. So I think context would be a couple of things. First of all, to give a sense of the ripple effect of some of the things that have happened, right. So, for example, the government grants that you know have been either frozen or completely cut, all right. So federal government grants going to various organizations, going to various nonprofits, the impact of that has already been felt to the level that, starting last week, starting the week of what would that be like, april 7th, the Chronicle of Philanthropy has created a non-profit NGO, obviously layoff tracker. So we have already here in the US through this layoff tracker. So we have already here in the US, through this layoff tracker, we know that we've already lost 10,000 nonprofit positions. There have been 10,000 nonprofit layoffs already. Wow, and that's just as of last week, direct results of the organization as well. And so, yes, it's both kind of direct and indirect result of that, both kind of direct and indirect result of that. The other one, one of many other kind of major happenings, is the fact that government employs themselves. So, coming back to why I was kind of hedging on what I was saying about DC and visiting DC and giving that White House tour, because it's horrible Right now in DC, the government agencies, the really crucial ones, largely starting with.

Martha Schumacher: 26:00

There were a few other things that happened first, but pretty much starting with and I know this was global news and I have no doubt this was news, very concerning news, where you are is the fact that USAID was essentially now it's not technically shuttered, but it might as well be so it went from being this crucial organization that had been funding many, many key programs overseas, including particularly health and countries that had food security issues and health issues just completely dismantled. So it started with USAID. And now, since USAID, other agencies that have either been completely shuttered or at least reduced to the point that they can hardly function is everything from, again, usaid to Health and Human Services, to the Department of Education. There's so many that it's like the list just goes on and on, but those would be some of the core key agencies, federal agencies that now either don't exist or are so drastically reduced as to essentially be ineffective or able to even just keep up with the most basic of services.

Martha Schumacher: 27:21

Oh and sorry, I knew that I would leave out a really important one Social Security Administration has been drastically reduced In the US. When you are working for an organization, whatever it is, you pay into social security and that's some of the key money that you have, the key financial resources you have when you retire, and so even that is being hit. So, in other words, just agency after agency after agency is being reduced or completely disbanded.

AmickyCarol: 27:57

And so part of DOGE, which Elon Musk and co are part of, looking at his efficiencies.

Martha Schumacher: 28:04

Yeah, the Department of Government Efficiency, which, of course, there are plenty of memes out there about that's an interesting name because it's not feeling terribly efficient, but anyway. So, yes, you're exactly right, amaki Carroll. That's where. That's all. That's been kind of the umbrella under which all of these agencies have been hit hard.

Martha Schumacher: 28:23

And then, of course, you have the fact that a lot of these, really all of these agencies, whether it's Health and Human Services, whether it's State Department, whether it's one of the departments of these agencies, whether it's Health and Human Services, whether it's State Department, whether it's one of the departments of well, I mentioned education, but education, energy, et cetera, all of these different departments, all of these different cabinet heads who have been put in, they're all extremely conservative people and beyond that, I can't think of one and that's part of why I'm sitting here hedging and looking for words, which is not typical for me. I can't think of a single one who actually has what I would call real experience, you know, like legit experience, in those areas. People are being the heads of those departments, in other words, the cabinet, who don't have even a baseline level of understanding of how to run a government agency, and they're heading up those agencies.

AmickyCarol: 29:22

Yeah, that's politics Risky business, isn't it? And that's the thing about power when people have power, you're never certain how they will use it. I don't think power itself is a bad thing, I just think it's like money it takes on the appearance of the one who has it. But let me just, yes, focus on USAID, because that's the thing, at the very least, that affects more people around the world, with every sympathy, and all the other things affect you guys in the US.

AmickyCarol: 29:55

But, yeah, thinking about USAID, yes, is there any marriage to the claims that it was a tool of the I don't know FBI, cia for causing instability in many places around the world? Because I think around the world, from my understanding and just gauging conversations that I see, a lot of people aren't that heartbroken at the fact that agency was pulled. And I don't know if there's any merit to activations, to the fact that they've used it. And I know, certainly, if I look at American foreign policy as somebody of African descent, I'm not particularly pleased about what Clinton did. You know, for instance, what's happened in Sudan, in fact, what still happens. What are your views around what maybe should have been done instead?

Martha Schumacher: 30:47

yeah. So a couple of thoughts. One is my husband, casey, and I have actually two extremely close friends, one of whom was a senior person at usa id, and so, in terms of like the person in my life that I'm closest to that has any, you know, real kind of intimate understanding of, and day-to-day workings at, usaid. It's her right. So she's just one person, but what I will say is she was there 12 years and, at least from my understanding of the kind of work she did, there was a real integrity to and a real legitimacy to at least the role she played, but not just the role she played, you know, the role she played in her own job, but also as a part of that team, right, and what that team did.

Martha Schumacher: 31:33

Having said that, I hear you loud and clear I would never, I think, in a million years I don't care whether it's a government agency, an NGO, a private, you know, I don't care which of the three sectors it is I would never believe that an organization that large, with those types of resources, wouldn't have elements of it that were problematic, that maybe even were corrupt.

Martha Schumacher: 31:59

I mean, I think that's all totally fair. Where I, though, I think that's all totally fair. Where I, though, guess that I have my biggest concerns at this point really has to do with. We do know, though, because we have fact-based evidence versus fake news right that certain communities, literally there are now documented people in certain communities dying because they do not have basic access even to whether it's, you know, water, whether it's in the case of USAID, it's it generally is more like certain medicine, you know, like we know, that it was absolutely not a perfect system. I think your point's 100% legit, but, but we also, at the same time, right know that there are literally whole communities who are either now sicker or, in some cases, literally people documented as dying because a bare minimum of services, or and or medicines and or, you know again, just baseline, are not getting to some of these communities.

AmickyCarol: 33:07

And that's where you know, that's where I get, as you can probably tell, get worked up, because it's not okay, that's heartbreaking, honestly, it really is, and I think for me, what it just shows me yet again is that we cannot create dependency, which I think in so many ways we've done for so long. I remember about 10 years ago coming across a book by Dambisa Moyo called Dead Aid, and I really, you know, had to agree with a lot of the stuff I said, and also from my experience working particularly across developing countries in Africa, I have seen so much harm done by people who relied on aid, it being pulled suddenly, and history's shown us over and over again this is more likely to happen than not. You just can't say forever that you'll keep. So I just always wonder whether it's intentional for people to give that level of support and keep the dependency on it sustainable and you and I know, as fundraisers, we will never go into an organization to help with sustainability and not create diverse sources of income.

Martha Schumacher: 34:18

It's part of also where you're going with this, also the kind of colonial patriarchal, you know, just that whole kind of dependency, right. I think, if I'm hearing right, that's also kind of part of what we're talking about. But, yes, the sustainability piece, I think, has always been, but I also, I don't disagree with that. But I guess I would go one step further and also say, though but you've also got to create an environment where the systems are such in the local governments, right, because I think we could spend another half hour hour, whatever, talking about what are the systems that are already in place that, for some communities anyway, are making it, you know, impossible or near impossible for them to get to a place of independence. You know, that sounds like another conversation.

AmickyCarol: 35:04

So will you come back on the podcast? Explore dependency. And you know you and I also are quite passionate and this was a talk I was giving at the IFC around making sure that you know those colonial systems of funding are eradicated. You know, more and more People who give money should give so in a manner that's unrestricted, based on trust. Yes, they can flex us, you know, to help those that give in.

Martha Schumacher: 35:33

Yeah, and the person who comes to mind for me here in the states, of course, is mackenzie scott. You know, she's been really clear around. I'm gonna give these big tranches of money and you do what you do because you know better than I do how to spend it. I'm not going to, you know, speaking of patriarchal, I'm not going to pull a matriarchal, you know moment and tell you how to spend it. I'm going to just give you general operating support and go for it, because that's what you really need. So, yeah, I mean and she's not the only one, but she's probably the best US example of someone who is consistently trying to do that for as many you know organizations as possible.

AmickyCarol: 36:10

Yeah, oh wow. Such an interesting area to explore. It could take us in different places, but anyway, we're going to have to pull this to a close now. Okay, okay, super interesting talking to you. Just tell me. I mean, what is it that we've not covered? That you would have hoped to bring out Number one, bearing in mind you're coming back again. You said yes, and also, how can people get in touch with you?

Martha Schumacher: 36:35

Yeah, sure. Well, I think one thing you'll tell me whether which is something sorry folks probably should have asked Amaki Carroll before we got on the call, but hopefully somewhere in how this gets distributed, you can, you know, put my email and my website and all those good things, and so that's how to get in touch. What I would say is I'm really glad you asked that question, because I would say the one thing and there are so many again, with what's happening in the US right now, that section of our discussion today could have, you know, been the whole thing and then some. But I think the one thing I didn't cover that is probably my greatest concern right now is something that philanthropic historian Benjamin Soskis is his name, s-o-s-k-i-s, and I really recommend folks follow him on LinkedIn. He is currently doing a really good job of essentially, sadly the last few days. He's been really normally been probably posts like once a week at most and he's kind of been posting every day for the last week or so because of what's been happening, and the big thing that's happening right now is that the tax exempt status of certain organizations are being threatened by the administration.

Martha Schumacher: 37:47

The biggie right now. That's been in the news for the last probably week is Harvard, and so, as we sit here today, it has publicly been stated by this administration that they are going to pull Harvard's tax-exempt status, and I almost feel like if there was, you know, if we had a sound effect, if there was a dun-dun on this, this would be the moment to put that there, because I can't imagine anyone listening to this, especially if they're kind of hearing that for the first time. I don't know, by the time this plays, maybe everyone will know about it, but I'm just saying that who would have ever thought I or anybody else would ever be uttering those words out loud? But it is not. At this moment does not appear to just be an idle threat. It seems to be something they are seriously considering. The latest news item this morning is that on Earth Day, which is this Tuesday, they are going to pull the tax-exempt status of any environmental organization working on climate change.

Martha Schumacher: 38:56

It's not that I want to leave us on a Debbie Downer note, so to speak, if we are at a place in America where organizations, nonprofits, who live and die by their tax-exempt status, who, frankly, if they get their tax-exempt status taken away, sure there are still people who would give, but the likelihood that you could come close to raising as much or come close to having the same level of vibrancy and robust services. It's pretty much unimaginable. We're in a time where maybe not 100% of my colleagues agree with me on this, but I think we're getting closer to 75 or 80. It's just feeling more and more like an authoritarian regime. And so I am going to say those words and I thought long and hard about whether I wanted to say those words on a podcast.

Martha Schumacher: 39:41

But I'm sorry when you get to a place where someone is literally threatening to take away your tax exempt status because you dared to go against them, that you dared to say anything you know against or bow to anything that they're trying to make you do.

Martha Schumacher: 39:57

That's what it feels like to me. So I just I guess what I'm saying is to put it into a perhaps a little less dramatic but still hopefully profound context is that is when you now go to a place where being able to provide those services, being able to continue business as usual day to day, that's not possible. When you're a leader of an organization who is now having to meet with leaders of other organizations to figure out what your contingency plan is if they pull your tax exempt status. So that's where we are right now in in the united states, and, um, it's hard, and so I guess, to end on a happier note, I'll take all of that and, honestly, this is serious business, because I've been following the Harvard story and I'm sure many people have been, and I think underpinning that is also the fundamental rise to free speech.

AmickyCarol: 40:55

But I'm horrified. I thought that was what this government stood for. It almost feels like somebody else has hijacked every single thing. But I guess it's not something that we can get into and I hope we can do that second part soon, because these are all really good things I'd love to explore a little bit about. But where would we be if we couldn't, you know, respectfully disagree, agree to disagree or just state? You know how we see things. We don't always have to have the same perspective, but that's also good.

Martha Schumacher: 41:28

Well, I just all I was going to build on that, because I agree a thousand percent and I'm very glad you brought up the First Amendment is that Ben Soskes, who I mentioned. Who's this philanthropic historian? That's exactly what his posts are about, like his most recent post yesterday although there's probably been one since we've been on today was about the First Amendment, you know, was that he's trying to make a point of like hey, I'm not coming on here trying to say what people should necessarily believe he's like. I know what I believe he's like, but what I'm not okay with is that this is completely flagrantly ignoring the First Amendment.

AmickyCarol: 42:06

So maybe flagrantly too.

Martha Schumacher: 42:09

Okay, so yeah. So yes, it is. It is about the First Amendment and it's also about the balance of power, because right now, the legislative branch just really has no power right now, and even the legal branch, of which there have been some pretty stunning moments of them trying to push back, that's being ignored. So, yeah, the three branches there's only one right now that, you know, seems to be having any power, and that's not what the founding fathers intended.

AmickyCarol: 42:41

Listen on that note, I just remind people. You might wonder why we care. The truth is, it's Harvard who hopefully can withstand this. But what about when they come for the rest of us? Exactly, you know, that's right. Yeah, because injustice anywhere represents the potential for injustice everywhere, everywhere. Exactly, yeah, that's right. I want to thank you again for joining me. It's been so lovely, as always, talk to you. Can't wait to do this again.

Martha Schumacher: 43:11

Thank you again so much for having me on. It's such a pleasure talking and, yes, I'm happy to talk again at whatever point. But I wish you the very best as well.

AmickyCarol: 43:21

Yeah.

Martha Schumacher: 43:21

All right, take care.

AmickyCarol: 43:24

Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of World Changes Podcast. I hope you're feeling as inspired as I am by today's conversation. Remember the power to create changes within each of us. If you were inspired by today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, share it with a friend and leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word and inspire even more world changers. And be sure to follow us on social media at World Changers PC for updates, behind the scenes content and more inspiring stories. Until next time, keep exploring, keep making a difference and remember you can be a world changer.